In fact, it had been on probation for 15 years. I was at a point of desperation. To try to do it. So four periods of music, three academic classes, one where a teacher actually taught. So that's what parents did. Nedra saw her daughter freeze. And she was like, "Mah'Ria, I gotta tell you something." Then she turned her car into a mobile situation room. Only 1 in 25 white children are in a district like that. And the battle over that school and desegregation in that school district, she has gone onto write a bunch of articles of New York Times Magazine, including a really incredible one about her own daughter and making that very fateful choice about how to educate her own daughter in a system as segregated as New York City schools. They know that you're the only kids being bused in from the other side of town. Our technical director is Matt Tierney. But it did. I watched this over and over. I had come from camp, got my t-shirt and everything. Mah'Ria started her freshman year at Normandy High School. What I will say is, it does not-. There's a reason why school segregation is order by the court and doesn't come through Congress, right? Because I felt that I needed to represent what if your kid was in a Normandy high school and they were just offered this opportunity, and other parents are saying "We don't want you here." But her own son, Michael, went to one of the most segregated districts in the state. We had to do better. MASK YOU LIVE IN is 2015’s in-depth offering, a thorough response to that question. We not only talk to those in the headlines, but also those who are affected by the many problems facing Indigenous urban and rural communities. Michael Brown was killed August 9, nine days before school started. But Francis Howell was firm. And I had to prove her wrong. I grew up in Waterloo, Iowa. It is well-known and inarguable that the gang problem has changed, as well as become more entrenched, over the past 25 years. Yeah, that's a pretty common thought. She says at some point Mr. Drummer gave the two students a worksheet. Don't taint my kid's school." And when this came on the news, they ended negotiations. School choice, right? To be clear, Normandy did not lose its accreditation because of violence. It's like how they say you get points on the SAT just for writing your name. But we can only recognize injustice if we know what justice is to begin with. On the first day of school, she rose to catch the bus at 5:45 AM. I had to prove to her I'm not stupid, I'm very intelligent. Within about six years you go from complete apartheid still in the South to the South becoming the most integrated part of the country which it remains. In fact, America has been going through a process over the last several decades of essentially resegregation. Mah'Ria, to be honest with you, she wasn't having a problem. She chose Cameron Hensley, a driven honor student. And it had a lot of kids who were of affluent professional New York. The improvement in math scores was close to that, though not quite as good. NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: It's a lifetime appointment, and they just have to deal with it. They will get that. The other thing about most segregated black schools, Nikole says, is that they have high concentrations of children who grew up in poverty. I'm Ira Glass. as trainers and just as people that consume social media, there are endless tasks that go into the making of your video, to make content look better, to get more reach and so you do not sound or look like an idiot. My kid if learning how to talk in a way, and then he's gonna be around these... And people don't quite say it in these terms, but it's the fear. We all love it. This is what happened in cities all over. Because when I got there, they had their little cheerleading squad cheering for us when we walked through the door-- "Welcome to Francis Howell," cheers like that. And I'm concerned. If you run into any problems or have feedback, please drop us a line at service@popupchinese.com. CHRIS HAYES: It's intense being the only of anything anywhere. We are. Then, we use them in class for quiz quiz trade. That's how crowded it was. That phrase. Because she ain't like my presence, she wanted to fight and she called me a black B-I-T-C-H and a nigger who wasn't going to know nothing, who was stupid, and ghetto, and trashy. So, I don't think that there isn't something inherently bad about a all black learning environment. I mean, they celebrated that the transfer students were there. It's just that, in most of the country, no one is even trying. And even things that should have been good news turned to bad news. Often in math, their homework assignment might be to write 2 problems or 2 questions on an index card. It was going well, that is until the grownups came up with a new plan. I'm a product of busing myself. Right now, I want this school to be the school that I stay at for my sophomore, junior, and senior year. The topic was as humorless and uncomfortable as it gets. First in the South, then in North, and then it hits a high point. And at the time, it was the heyday of No Child Left Behind. My child may be the lawyer that defends your child one day. He's a cheerleader and upbeat about the potential for a turnaround. So Nedra found herself back in her car on lunch breaks, making calls. I personally know a family in the Fox School District that was shopping for houses in our school district. Let's talk 54 to 88, then, right. Then was choir, and then he had two periods of band. But I didn't really understand until I started covering education that we were part of a desegregation program. The Missouri State Board of Education is pulling accreditation from the Normandy School District. In the 2013 to 2014 school year, Mah'Ria, who we heard in the first half of the show, finished eighth grade at the mostly white Francis Howell School District. So for whatever time we have, they will get a quality education. There's just been no other way to do that. Real desegregation didn't get going in St. Louis until the 1980s. There was one moment that I could not get out of my head. That they understand that going to schools with a certain social class opens doors for their kids. Episode-Based Discussion Questions. CHRIS HAYES: That what you just said there is, I want to just pause that schools to this day the most integrated schools, the South is the region with the most integrated schools. It's been accepted law for 60 years so I think we forget. So, where do you ever find enough sustained effort in a large enough group of people willing to dismantle that, that it becomes systemic. And the students who went through that, some of them, anyway, grew up to be the parents in the Francis Howell gym. When the law was passed, no one thought an entire district would lose accreditation. Today, after years where very few communities were launching new desegregation programs, Nikole found a place that just three years ago, unintentionally, started school desegregation. So Cameron said he normally goes to the counselor's office because this was not unusual. Because we know exactly what to do. And this is what she says. We now have schooling in America that is as segregated as it's been since the 1960s, we have housing in America that is deeply segregated. Classes were dumbed down and often unorganized and unruly. Nikole Hannah Jones is an investigative reporter, these days at The New York Times. By the time Mah'Ria got to middle school, little things started happening that begin to worry Nedra even more. It just is what it is. And then you can go a mile away to PS8 and you could get 20 of those recommendations. What does that mean?" NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: There are a bunch of things of course that are happening in this period. Still, he sounds like any other superintendent of a struggling district. The court gets, the Supreme Court finally decides ten years is long enough to pretend that we did not make this ruling and it begins to issue even stricter and stricter rulings and then very quickly from ‘68 to ‘72 the dominoes fall all across the south. NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: And how do we change that? And then they're getting the worst teacher. A lot of what they're saying is a referendum on what happened to them when they were kids. We're doing the things that improve instruction. People tried us almost every day. With Brown versus Board of Education, we as a nation decided that segregated schooling violated the constitutional rights of black children. When you start talking about letting people move next to me, I can no longer control who I'm coming in contact with. Questions are the heart of discussion. Moving start times up 20 minutes, maybe 40 minutes? They began calling kids up, one by one, to get their certificates. Judges in the North start finding that in fact the segregation of the North was also de jure. So, academically, test scores don't go down in desegregated schools or integrated schools, we know that the peak of integration, white test scores were rising just along with black folks, so, the gap was closing. The state was taking over the Normandy District. The Problem We All Live With - Part One Right now, all sorts of people are trying to rethink and reinvent education, to get poor minority kids performing as well as white kids. But the few black parents who stand up to speak have a remarkably different memory of the exact same period of time. NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: That's a structural change. So one of them offered a helpful solution. Description: We all want to rid the world of injustice. You can't scale that across an entire city. If you have thoughts about the podcast, this conversation or any other, you could tweet at me, Twitter, maybe you've heard of it. I mean, part of the question is, are they... that is a deep question about school integration to me is like, "Are they giving something up?" It was Normandy School District, and now it is Normandy Schools Collaborative. How do we get to separate but equal? Mah'Ria was watching it all on the monitors in an overflow room. And that was grade school, right? Can I just say that during desegregation, this is what parents did? And they wanted to make sure the new students felt welcomed. Again, Francis Howell did not respond to requests to talk to us. It's so funny the way you say that-- "Well, how do we know that integration works?" I had the same issue, I mean obviously coming from a different perspective but if you say to yourself to me I went into it saying it was one of the most important formative experience of my life that I went to a truly integrated public school as a child and I want to do the same for my daughter. Well, we do, but there are intangible things that you lose when you're in a segregated entirely poor school. It was designed to keep white people on top, and it does. Well, honestly, I thought, "Well, how many parents are going to want to get their kids up early and send them to a school 30 miles down the highway?" NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: An hour each way, and the bus would pick up a bunch of black kids from all across town and drop us off at various schools. So, I think it's much harder but the argument on the other hand for black kids and increasingly Latino kids, is like, "Will you actually get a quality education or not?" I kept telling myself, as if I was talking to those parents who were not embracing this decision, my child may be the doctor that saves your life one day. NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yeah. And one of those things is that by being isolated from the language and the culture of those who run your country who will run the businesses that you may want to work for, you can't make up for that isolation by throwing more dollars and getting better textbooks. But the new Normandy Collaborative District was non-accredited. CHRIS HAYES: And one of the things that crazy to me is that everyone just accepts it. What types of things would people say or do? We were the only non-accredited district in the world. CHARLES PEARSON: I think, well, the first indicators of a turnaround is if within three years, at the end of our third year, all of our schools will be accredited again. And this is one of the arguments that I make when our common and perennial answer to segregation is, "Well, we just need to fund high-poverty schools." There are questions about class sizes, money, how this will affect special ed, fire safety. We have to do this. White people should experience that. Our website, thisamericanlife.org. You can have people who can get you internship at any job you want. They actually are all children. Beginning in second grade, she was bussed to a wealthy, majority white school as part of a desegregation initiative in her hometown. I loved it. NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Uh-huh (affirmative). She made a list of nearby school districts and private schools. That, to me, was a little extreme. For instance, here's how Beth Cirami, the mother of three who was asking for metal detectors, began her remarks. Right? A school system got integration and Nikole got to see what happens to the kids, what happens with the parents, which is not pretty, and what happens with the politics in modern day America, when school desegregation shows up uninvited to the table by any of the usual people in charge. Years ago, when the MetroLink was being very popular, St. Charles County put to a vote whether or not we wanted the MetroLink to come across into our community. I love her. We were non-accredited. I had a teacher named Mrs. Blau who really helped me to blossom as a writer and a reader. These are working-class people. CHRIS HAYES: Which was a really, really, really important, good experience that a lot of white people don't get to experience. They learned to adapt to white norms, they learned to speak the "professional white language," they learned to be comfortable in those situations, so I think for us, clearly, it was a means of being able to study what you were going to need to succeed in a white-dominated country. They put their kids on the bus to go integrate the schools, and they followed behind because they needed to make sure their kids were OK. Yeah. But the Normandy kids are almost all black, the Francis Howell kids nearly all white. NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: Yes. CHRIS HAYES: It's so true. It's the reason why southern states were willing not to expand Medicaid, even though it hurt more white people than black people. School integration, yes. That is the way that we believe which is not true, but we understand the commodity of who parents are in a building and what that does for kids. Then in the 90s the Supreme Court, again a very conservative court issues three rulings right in succession that make it much easier for school districts to prove that they've done all that they can. This court immediately, one of the first school desegregation cases it gets is a Detroit case which is calling for metro wide desegregation of Detroit and the Supreme Court finds a constitutional violation but knocks it down, it says you cannot force these white suburbs to integrate with the city of Detroit. The problem is, because we are country built on white supremacy, whiteness is more important than those things. The structure is still there. I think you'll see pockets, there's always been pockets of places wanting and willing to work on it. So I know the routine. They parked and walked in. You can see more of our work from "Why Is This Happening?" Betsy DeVos' program, get rid of the achievement gap. NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: So, this is literally the argument I have with my editors every time I finish a piece, because they always want me to end on a hopeful note. Over the last couple of months, I spent a lot of time with one of them, a Normandy mother named Nedra Martin. I mean, this may be a good Segway into the specialized high schools or you look at the battle with my own daughter's school, which is the black school and the white school down the street, was overcrowded and then the department of education wanted to rezone some of those white kids into our daughter's school, those parents got together and fought. It will be de facto because you'll have urban centers that are predominantly black, exclusively black in schools and you'll have surrounding white suburbs. Do you think that each city should have their own laws or could all cities share the same general laws? Because the only what, right? Questions? Under the law, while Normandy students can enroll in any nearby accredited district, Normandy has to provide transportation to just one. And I want-- this is what I want. When you ask them questions, Nedra, Mah'Ria, their eyes fix on each other. The people who my work is targeting, are progressive people, who say, they believe in public goods, they believe in equality. You just never felt like you belonged or it was your school. And at Rihanna's graduation, the vice president of the Missouri State Board of Education spoke. And one of the things that has been challenging as I write these stories is knowing that bussing for me was actually very hard. So you're right. I don't think we will. By law, they had no say in the matter. In my daughter's school, which she attends a 95 percent free/reduced lunch school that serves a federal housing project. The Supreme Court rules in ‘54 and I think it's good to pause and think about how radical of a ruling that is. Others denounced his "liberal" ways using derogatory language. This hour, TED speakers take us through the looking glass, where we … Their parents, like me, can make up for any disadvantage academically, my child might get in that school and these are public schools. But you look at the purge rates at that school, you look at the amount of additional fundraising they have to do, the philanthropy dollars that are coming in. Mah'Ria had spent a year making new friends, joining sports teams, settling in. "Friend like that" meaning a white friend. Over 60 years since the Brown v. Board of Education ruling forced schools to integrate, the nation is witnessing schools become increasingly segregated. All you need is a microphone and an internet connection, and you pretty much have the tools necessary to make and publish a podcast. No one really explained why they'd lost it after all this time. I don't care about the taxes. I'm Ira Glass, back next week with more stories of This American Life. What I want to believe in and I think you believe in it, I think I believe in is like, there's a world of mutual flourishing past that line of equality, but to get back to "the how we get there," like one of the things that I've taken away from your writing on this, is just how fucking hard it is. She also earns good grades. They're very clear on wanting to hoard these resources. So, did Rosa Parks and Fannie Lou Hamer believe that they could topple apartheid? CHRIS HAYES: The social capital that you have access to in those spaces I just feel like everyone undercounts all the time. They were negotiating on a home. #34. They had 40 minutes left. And I could see in her face that it was not good. It was saying that we have been promising since Plessy v. Ferguson to make separate equal and there's never been a single moment in time where black kids isolated from white kids got even close to the same resources. Now you solve that, I'mma give you a dollar. Maybe Michael Brown's mom knew these scores. I don't want to eat with black people I can move in my neighborhood and because there's no black people in this white neighborhood there's no black people in the restaurant in my neighborhood. Cameron and other students finished in five minutes. Something is wrong." There were enough of us where it wasn't just their school. It can be higher prep activity where I create the questions or discussion starters, but I also like having the kids create their own. CHRIS HAYES: You talked about this in this... You did this amazing, amazing piece called “the Problem We All Live With” for This American Life. It didn't take long before the transfer law was bankrupting Normandy. So much of my work is around people, who actually say they believe in this shit. You have to break that up. Louis. Every last one of them. With Google Podcasts, you can find and listen to the world's podcasts for free. The bad schools never caught up to the good schools. That thing that is so effective but never discussed? I think it's a huge part. "Uh, excuse me. It's 4,000 black kids. Do … It's a numeric snapshot of the type of education students are receiving. NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES: What's his last name? Comments? Students who transferred now do not necessarily have the right to stay in that situation. In 1999, just 16 years after real desegregation came to St. Louis, the desegregation order ended. I really think that that's true. It's on the other side of town. Podcast downloads for 5 Live Science Podcast. That would have been it for Nedra too, if it weren't for what happened next. I want to know where the metal detectors are going to be, and I want to know whether your drug sniffing dogs are going to be. In all of my years of reporting, I don't think I've ever heard a state official apologize to students for failing to educate them. And we used to always go to the pool on the white side of town. I just don't... My book is tracing the fight for education equality for black kids, all the way back to slavery. And so that was pretty much the rest of the day. We're going to improve teacher quality. But race barely comes up that night, except when white parents insist it is not the issue. I'm just going to say, she's an awesome child, OK? Environment & Pollution A Part of Conversation Questions for the ESL Classroom.. Are there litter laws where you live? She'd brought it just in case something like this happened. In one month, I send my three small children to you, and I want to know is there going to be metal detectors? I mean, you will never see ferocity, like a bunch of white parents, fighting a zoning change. They hadn't closed the achievement gap between black kids and white kids. Being from Jennings, I've watched the dismantling of an award-winning school district. Not even before you get to, "I want to be a reporter and there's a mom in my school who's a reporter," it's like a reporter's a thing you can be. And so if you picture that out if we had kept going, when we had cut it by half, I don't know that we would have eliminated it totally, because there's a long history here. It's also I think partly true in the context of class, which is like how much of American social mobility is dependent upon performing, sounding like a person of a certain class. But integration-- before I talked to Nikole about this, I had this vague sense about integration-- maybe you had this too-- that we tried that. Though Normandy officials deny that's why they chose Francis Howell. That's the Plessy v. Ferguson phrase. It's under resourced, it's whatever. CHRIS HAYES: Yeah. "If you let those children in, we will leave-- again. I'm not even dealing with parents who opt out of public schools, the public system altogether, but that you think that any group or type of parents should have exclusive access to publicly funded schools, I think it's hypocritical. CHRIS HAYES: I mean that's what we have today. This is why after years of studying this, Nikole thinks segregated schools full of poor kids are probably never going to catch up to other schools. And I think I'm so obsessed with this because we have this thing that we know works, that the data shows works, that we know is best for kids. The transfer law gives students in unaccredited districts the right to transfer to a nearby accredited one for free. The reaction to large numbers of black children moving into white schools would probably sound no different in New York, or Chicago, or Boston. I literally, mentally, had a vision of a herd of cattle being pushed on a truck, being herded back to where they came from. Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. The minority kids in their programs were still not performing on par with white kids. It was working but it was hard, took a lot and we were very happy to say look there's no laws requiring this anymore. And I was one of those kids. I don't even deal with Trump supporters or whatever, right? When we say, "Oh, it's just the structure," then we also justify individual choices, because you're like, "I can't solve all of school inequality in the city, so it's okay if I put my kid in this all white, rich school, 'cause I can't fix it all." I didn't know where to sit or anything like that. They can resegregate every single school as long as they never say they're doing it to be discriminatory, they can do whatever they want. In the schools where white families chose to stay, test scores for black transfer students rose. There's gonna be black bathrooms and white bathrooms, but they're gonna be equal bathrooms. They lived longer. And she, every time that I read a piece she writes or listen to her, it helps me to reorient my thinking from things I thought I knew or things I thought I knew about which buckets they went into and completely re-conceptualize about how to think about the problem we all face or the problem we all live with, as she puts it. So how did we get to this point? She's just an incredible combination of searing world vision and just historical reportorial knowledge in one. She's continued to do well. This was last August, almost a year ago. The hard problem is, to use the words of Annaka Harris, the question of "how experience arise[s] out of non-sentient matter". People flip out. Because I feel like if I was to run away, if I was to come back, she was winning. We're fine with that. Outside of it being forced, it's not ever gonna happen. Mah'Ria usually brought home As, but when she got a C, Nedra asked the teacher why she had not been notified. He wrote in his ruling, "Every day a student attends an unaccredited school, the child could suffer harm that cannot be repaired." So my school was the furthest away and the whitest and the richest, which is why my parents chose it. I'm like, OK, I'm next. Each question is based on content from that week’s New York Times, and all of them are still open to … When you look at our standings in the world, in terms of education. I mean, like, never. Mah'Ria shut down. Not a lot of us, we mostly know each other, but we do exist. Those two generally go together, but I think she's a genius, an incredible genius, she's working on a book, "I am Detroit" and I try to get her on the show all the time. I think we just forget that it was a crazy ruling, not crazy but very radical. It's hard to imagine a bar lower than that. This is not a race issue. I think even very progressive people think that there are exceptional black kids, but most black kids aren't as good as their kids. The difference between unaccredited and non-accredited, those three letters, changed everything. Though Normandy chose to provide free transportation to the Francis Howell school district, Francis Howell wasn't part of that decision. 18.40 Big Life Questions Show Announcement That's when the state made a desperation move. You can even look on a graph and it's like the line goes in one direction, then it hits an inflection point I think in the 1990s if I'm not mistaken... CHRIS HAYES: In ‘88 and then just starts going in the other direction. It just is. And I just want to say to-- if she's even still here-- the first woman who came up here and cried that it was a race issue, I'm sorry, that's her prejudice calling me a racist because my skin is white and I'm concerned about my children's education and safety. You can't have restrictive covenants, you can't say you cannot rent your house to black people, you can't say you cannot admit this black child in my school. Nikole Hannah-Jones has firsthand knowledge of the system. They're also fleeing large numbers of black people who are coming and settling into the city and they don't want to live around them. CHRIS HAYES: But don't fear that it's enervating? And I say in quotes because typically, at that point, if you didn't enter into a voluntary agreement, you were going to be sued by the Justice Department and have a court-ordered desegregation. But I don't think that we actually believe that, right? What changes is in 1964 with the passage of the Civil Rights Act, what many of us don't know is outside of public accommodations it also for the first time gives the Justice Department the right to sue for school desegregation itself. 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Supremacy so heavily, amazing piece called “ the problem we all Live with become more entrenched over. Year old girl who rode the bus at 5:45 AM site and know justice... Keep them is to make it work at Normandy high school Michael Brown graduated from was you... Using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and 've... Produced in the problem we all live with podcast discussion questions with WBEZ Chicago, it was going well, that part. Something inherently bad about a all black countries right now and then turned. I believe that they could n't come provocative and have garnered a polarised....

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